NPR’s Mary Louise Kelly speaks with Secretary of State Antony Blinken at the Aspen Security Forum for a wide-ranging discussion of the most pressing foreign policy issues.
SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Secretary of State Antony Blinken has a big job. He’s steering US foreign policy around the world at a time of conflict and tension. At the heart of that job, Blinken says, is acknowledging the humanity of the person on the other side of the table, whether they’re a friend or foe.
Antony Blinken: I believe that if we can end or minimize the terrible dehumanization that we see in many places around the world, what is best for humanity is not only possible, but will actually happen.
DETROW: In a wide-ranging conversation with my co-host Mary Louise Kelly at the Aspen Security Forum, Secretary Blinken shared his views on a range of our most pressing foreign policy issues, including Israel’s war with Hamas.
Mary Louise Kelly: UN Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield said this week that “ceasefire talks are moving in the right direction.” Is she right, and what is her basis for saying so?
BLINKEN: Linda is right. We are within the 10-yard line, we are moving toward the goal line, and I believe we can get an agreement that will bring about a ceasefire, bring the hostages home, and put us on a better track to build lasting peace and stability.
KELLY: And again, what is that based on but hope?
BLINKEN: It’s based on two things. Yes, hope is a good thing, but it’s not enough. No, it’s based on reality. And here’s the reality: A month ago, President Biden laid out a detailed proposal for a ceasefire, for the release of hostages, and for possible progress. What happened after that was quite amazing: The whole world rallied behind that proposal. And as a result, after a lot of pressure and diplomacy over the next few weeks, Israel and Hamas agreed to the framework that the president laid out. Now it’s just a matter of finishing negotiating some of the key details.
KELLY: Well, Hamas didn’t sign it. They…
BLINKEN: Oh, no. They signed the framework.
KELLY: Right, but if they…
BLINKEN: That’s very important. But there are still issues that need to be resolved, issues that need to be negotiated. And we’re in the process of doing just that. And by the way, when I say we’re inside the 10-yard line, that’s true. And we know that the last 10 yards of anything is often the hardest.
KELLY: One more question about the Middle East: Is the two-state solution dead?
Blinken: It’s not dead, it shouldn’t be dead, and…
Kerry: It’s very hard to be optimistic when the Israeli government and public are resisting Israel. Gaza is being destroyed, settlers are taking over land in the West Bank. Where is the room for hope?
BLINKEN: You know, John McCain often said that it’s always darkest before it’s totally dark.
(Laughter)
BLINKEN: So if you…
KELLY: We miss him every day.
BLINKEN: … Keep that in mind. It’s not a bad guide for the work that we’re all trying to do. But look, there’s a fundamental reality that we can’t escape. The fundamental reality is: Between Gaza and the West Bank, there are more than 5 million Palestinians. There are about 7 million Israeli Jews. Neither of them are going anywhere. The Palestinians are not going anywhere. The Jews are not going anywhere. We need a compromise, but we need a compromise that achieves two things: bringing lasting peace and lasting security to the Israelis that they so desperately want and need, and realizing the right of self-determination for the Palestinians.
Now, with any right comes a responsibility, a responsibility to build a state that is not a threat to Israel, that is not a Hamas-stan (ph), that is not a state like Lebanon, where Hezbollah actually controls the country. So something important has to happen for the state to come about, but I strongly believe that, yes, it has to be in the future. Now, who are the strongest opponents of a two-state solution? Iran and Hamas. So the strongest counterattack against both Iran and Hamas would be the realization of two states.
And one more thing, and I’m sorry this is so long, but I think this is important: there is another future for Israel, the outlines of which we’ve seen in almost an immature way, but it’s there — a future in which Israel achieves what has probably been its number one goal since its founding: to be accepted in the region, to have normal relations with all of its neighbors.
Kelly: Yeah.
BLINKEN: We see that through our normalization efforts. When Iran attacked Israel, the first time Iran attacked Israel directly, not only the United States but European countries and countries in the region came to Israel’s defense. So we see a future in which Israel is more integrated in the region, more secure, the Palestinians realize their aspirations for statehood, and their future enemy, Iran and its various proxies, are isolated.
KELLY: Thank you for giving us reason for hope. On Ukraine, let me start with the reason for hope. NATO recently expanded military assistance. Many of the problems with ammunition shortages have been resolved. Dozens of F-16 fighter jets are on their way to Ukraine. They are expected to become operational this summer. I would like to ask you what it would take for the United States to change its policy on how far Ukraine can fire its weapons at Russia. For this question, I reached out to my colleagues in the Kyiv bureau, including my colleagues in Ukraine. I was interested to know what they would like to ask you. They want to know. Does Washington want Ukraine to win, or not?
(applause)
BLINKEN: As we look back over the last two and a half years, I think it’s hard to conclude that no other country has done more to ensure Ukraine’s success than the United States. And that will continue to be the case as long as we have something to say. Well, guess what…
KELLY: That’s true, but they will point out that they’re being asked to fight with one hand tied behind their back.
BLINKEN: Every step of the way, we’ve tried to adapt and adjust to the realities on the ground — what’s actually happening — and make sure that the Ukrainian people have what they need, when they need it. But it’s not enough to just give them a weapons system. They have to be able to use it. They have to be able to maintain it. It has to be part of a coherent strategy.
And as we’ve done these things, Lloyd Austin has done an extraordinary job not only of bringing together over 50 nations to support the defense of Ukraine, but also of working through each of these decisions. And again, every step of the way. We’ve done more, we’ve adjusted, we’ve adapted. And I’m confident that we’ll continue to do that.
KELLY: I want to ask you about the Americans who are being held in Russia. Evan Gershkovich of the Wall Street Journal was sentenced to 16 years in prison this morning. And Vladimir Kara-Murza, whose Washington Post column won a Pulitzer Prize this year. How are they going to get them home?
BLINKEN: We are working literally every day trying to figure out what we can do to bring them home. And we’ve had a tremendous track record over the last three and a half years of doing just that, bringing home roughly 30 Americans from different places around the world who had been wrongfully detained. All I can say is, we’re trying. We’re working right now, and we won’t stop until we bring Evan home, we bring Paul Whelan home, and we bring others home.
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DETROW: This is an interview with Secretary of State Antony Blinken and NPR’s Mary Louise Kelly at the Aspen Security Forum. A link to the full text of their conversation, which also touches on China, Iran and more, is available on our website, npr.org.
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